Teach the Brain Forums

Full Version: Must there be a causal effect before we teach it?
You're currently viewing a stripped down version of our content. View the full version with proper formatting.
Smile When we are teaching our students about the brain and we say that it does this or that to our being therefore we can learn better; must we have causal proof of what we are teaching?

Rolleyes This could be a most interesting subject because many many teachers are teaching directly out of texts that have no causal proof what so ever. Yet, can we say there is a high correlation of truth rather than a cause and effect?

Smile If you have not heard John T. Bruer. Ph.D., President of the McDonnell Foundation speak or read his opinions in the article A Bridge Too Far, then I suggest that it would be educational. He is not an obstructionist; he just wants to get it right. His work can be found with a good internet search engine or use this web address for reflections on his work. http://www.brainconnection.com/topics/?main=conv/bruer

Cool I believe with the wide spread interest in the brain and education that the nascent International Mind, Brain and Education Society will be a value to all of us to help keep a balanced perspective. The mission of the International, Brain, and Education Society (IMBES) is to facilitate cross-cultural collaboration in biology, education, and the cognitive and develomental sciences. Science and practice in these fields will benefit from rich, bi-directional interaction. Research can contribute to usable knowledge for education, and practice can help to define promising research directions and contribute to the refinement of testable hyypotheses (quote IMBES). The International Mind, Brain and Education's website is http://www.imbes.org

Information regarding the brain and education is coming out very quickly now; let's be sure that we are teaching our students the correct knowledge; yet moving forward in a prudent manner.
Be well,
Rob
suSmile Talking to many of the instructors and professors at conferences and institutes regarding causation or causal effects, I found there to be many differing opinions on a definition. Can we agree upon a definition of causation or causal effects when applying the function(s) of the brain to classroom instruction? What do you think? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality
Thanks,
Rob
Segarama
segarama Wrote:Smile Talking to many of the instructors and professors at conferences and institutes regarding causation or causal effects, I found there to be many differing opinions on a definition. Can we agree upon a definition of causation or causal effects when applying the function(s) of the brain to classroom instruction?
Thanks,
Rob
Segarama

Hi Rob,
In regard to a definition of causation or causal effects when applying the function(s) of the brain to classroom instruction?
We have our 5 well known senses, along with our proprioceptive and vestibular senses.
Along with their associated data storage/ memory regions.
Then we have our Working Memory for processing and interconnecting the spectrum of our sensory data.
The greater function of the brain, is not simply with Declarative Knowledge retrieval. But with the Meta-Cognitive potential that the brain offers.
Whilst the acquisition of an encyclopaedic declarative knowledge is important.
The value of an encyclopaedia is simply as a reference.
I would suggest that the overarching focus of education, should be with meta-cognitive development.
With a focus on the development of a Working Memory which can operate effectively across All of our Senses.
Further to an effective meta-cognitive interaction of all Senses.

Whilst the old focus of education has been as a place to learn the "3 R's" reading, writing, arithmetic.
Which has traditionally taken a 'declarative' rote learning approach.
As has remediation.
This has been carried out on the assumption that the working memory associated with each sense. Is working at a mythical 'normal' level for all students.
Which fails to recognise the complex variation of sensory working memory practises that are occurring within any classroom.
For example, some students will be 'audio working memory' thinkers.
Others will be 'visual w/m' thinkers.
Then others utilise a 'tactile/ audio' integrated approach.
Rather than recognising this variability as normal. Any variation is classed as a Learning Disorder/Disability.
Further to this, the WHO estimate that between 5% -10% of the worlds population suffer from the maths dysfunction of Dyscalculia.
Where it has been identified that a major factor in this disorder, is the inability to 'mentally visualise'.
Mental visualisation difficulties have also been associated with the motor, visual and phonetic forms of Dyslexia.
Along with handwriting disorders.
Though Proprioceptive sensory development is also a major factor in handwriting. As the sense which enables us to be aware of our 'total body in space'. It is also crucial for participation in Physical Education. Though students with a proprioceptive disorder, are commonly left 'sitting on the bench'. Rather than assisted to develop their proprioception.
Which results in exclusion from Team activities, which are a valuable method for developing a gestalt awareness of 'the other'. As well as comprehension and social skills.
My basic point, is that education should be more focussed on the comprehensive development of our senses and working memory. In a coordinated developmental approach to the broader brain, central nervous system and body.
Essentially with a focus on meta-cognitive development.
Helping students to build their own comprehensive tool-kit for thinking.
Geoff.




























































Smile Smile
Smile Geoff, think you may have something here. I am doing a great deal of work on Meta-cognition and especially memory retrieval. I agree that to just repeat declarative facts is not what we are looking for. Of course a declarative memory is not just facts but you get the idea.

Play this with me.....could declarative memory be honed to transfer part of it's memory to nondeclarative memory? It seems that just maybe we are doing that just a bit.
http://www.brainconnection.com/topics/?main=conv/bruer


Good talking with you.
Rob
segarama Wrote:Smile Geoff, think you may have something here. I am doing a great deal of work on Meta-cognition and especially memory retrieval. I agree that to just repeat declarative facts is not what we are looking for. Of course a declarative memory is not just facts but you get the idea.

Play this with me.....could declarative memory be honed to transfer part of it's memory to nondeclarative memory? It seems that just maybe we are doing that just a bit.
http://www.brainconnection.com/topics/?main=conv/bruer


Good talking with you.
Rob

Hi Rob,
You had me puzzled with the idea of : could declarative memory be honed to transfer part of it's memory to nondeclarative memory?
Given that non-declarative seems to be associated with physical activities. Where you noted elsewhere, that one can get on a push-bike after not having ridden for 30 years. But within a minute or 2, one is riding perfectly
I've been pondering Non-declarative, where I realised that I had been understanding it as 'physical activity'. Physical motor skills.
Yet it just occurs to me, that their are many different 'Smells' which automatically link to memories. The smell of Jasmine instantly takes me back to memories of my years in India.
Equally their are a variety of seemingly trivial 'Sounds', which instantly retrieve a vast array of data from my declarative memory.
This equally applies to my 'Tactile' sense. For example, I have eaten Steak & Kidney pie about 4 times in my life. The last time about 40 years ago. Though I can still recall the particular 'texture' of Kidney as I write this.
Also if I recall my numerous encounters with poisonous snakes, it is the physical proprioceptive memory of the Olympic rotating leap/s that I took. Which reside as a memory.
Basically, what I'm suggesting, is that what we call Non-Declarative memory. May in fact be an intrinsic Sensory Memory?
Where each Sense has its own non-declarative memory.

In relation to this, is the use of what is called a Multi-Sensory approach to Remedial Tutoring.
Which may in fact be focussed on accessing Non-Declarative memory?
If 'Riding a Bike' is non-declarative. Surely Handwriting is non-declarative?
Though do phonemes and graphemes utilise/become non-declarative memory?

Rob, you did write; "Play this with me", so I've been 'playing' with the subject?
Yet the very word Play, perhaps exemplifies the issue?
Where Play is code for join in with the Discovery/Adventure.
Children enter schooling with a multi-sense of Play , Adventure and Discovery!
Though it is fairly quickly removed.

I'll have to finish off here, as it's Play-time!
Geoff.






























Wink
Smile Hi Geoff,

Let's place special needs children especially those with pervasive developmental disorders and communicative disorders into the memories of nondeclarative and declarative mix. Also let's put the thalamus in that mix.....Why can we not have a multisensory infractions at the thalamus when acting as an intersection of incoming sensory distribution to the amygdala and on to the cortex .....Somehow some way these special needs children have a sensory and memory deficit that I cannot find. Play with me on this using senses [afferent and efferent paths] and the thalamus/amygdala and movement to the correct neural cortex taking into effect sensory overload.


http://www.aromacaring.co.uk/sensory_overload.htm
Thanks,
Rob
Segarama
Hi Rob,
To begin with, I would add the Angular Gyrus to the list.
To pick up on your statement, to use the senses and movement to correct the neural cortex, and :Somehow some way these special needs children have a sensory and memory deficit that I cannot find.
Across the broader spectrum of 'Special Needs' disorders. It is quite common for the disorder to also have 'Gifted' included in the definition.
Which is a reflection of highly developed Declarative Memory.
The 'disorder/s' is/are commonly in the realm of the Senses and Non-Declarative Memory. The 'Giftedness' is often a result of having effective use of fewer senses. Which in turn enables a greater focus on developing the remaining senses.
Though, often the area of sensory deficit, is not the result of dysfunction in the particular Organ. But with the networked integration of the input from the organ. Where Sensory Hyper-sensitivity as you mentioned, is a notable example. Or issues such as the left and right ears processing sound at different speeds. Or the left and right eyes inability to focus on the same point. Or the ineffective simultaneous mental processing of sound and vision.
Then we have the broad area of Fine and Gross Motor skills. Which is supported by Proprioceptive and Vestibular senses.
These are just but a few of a multitude of Sensory disorders, any of which will be a serious obstacle to learning. Though as I previously mentioned. This is often not a result of sensory organ dysfunction. But rather the consequence of a particular 'sense', having not yet developed an effective Network integration.
Though the crucial factor, is that when the dysfunction is not within the Sensory Organ, but rather with its Neural Network integration.
That its sensory neural network is in a lifelong state of redevelopment.
Therefore, if provided with the appropriate Experiential exposure. The brain cannot avoid building a new sensory network in response, to this impetus.
It automatically responds.
As to the question of how Neuroscience can be integrated into education?
Exposing Students with sensory deficits to experiential learning that initiates the growth of a more effective sensory neural network. Is a perfect example.

Education as Integrated Neural Network Development?
Geoff.












Smile
Smile Well how does one prove a causal effect? Let's take as an example the MMR vaccine that is given to young children. We have a great many people who will swear to the fact that their children contracted autism from the thimerosal [mercury] contained in the vaccine. As a matter of fact there were Congressional Hearings on this issue. I view everyone of them that I could. It was never proven that thimerasol in the MMR vaccination caused autism. However it was finally removed from the vaccine.

There was no causal effect and when the pediatrians subsequently gave the vaccine, many pediatricians use the MMR with thimerosal until they had used up the old batches...It was very interesting because when the latest flu went around the physicians recommended that those within certain age limits be given the flu shot [containing mercury]. However, when I reminded the physician that my granddaughter is autistic, he hesitated. He said, "let me call you back". He called back later in the day and recommended that she not have the shot. Well, now we are identifying areas of the brain and teaching that there is a relationship maybe we are in need to be cautious to prove causal effects for educational purposes. Yet we must move forward. Who is the umpire that proves causal effect?
I must say that historically medicine has been very good to us...and we must move prospectively. Again we are fortunate to have the nascent International Mind, Brain and Education Society discusing all of these items.
The International Mind, Brain and Education's website is http://www.imbes.org

Be well, Cool
Rob
Rolleyes Hi, well this has been an interesting day. I thought about so many things yet I kept coming back to causation and how we prove it etc., etc.
It is really quite simple if you work hard enough and have the tools to work with. The tools being the subject for which strong underpinnings must be used. I decided to take many many subjects and apply as many underpinnings as possible to each subject...then it just kind of hit me between the eyes. Since underpinnings mean a foundation, support, legs, or most anything that is accepted as a strong strong supporting scaffold, then it really depends on the area of knowledge that we are addressing. I have ordered a book called Causation. It is a book on philosophy. I know that may be called underpinnings for those items addressed from a philosophical point of view....but it will not do for addressing the brain and the strong underpinnings that one needs to really prove causation for the purpose of instruction.

Eric Kandel et al. has a organization called Mind, Brain and Memory. His underpinnings will most likely come from molecular biology of cognition.
Which is a relatively new discipline. He should have no trouble communicating memory as a causal factor for instruction with his students.
Retrieved from the internet on August 3, 2005
URL: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/21stC/issue-1...enter.html
Best, Cool
Rob
It is important to remember that correlation does not imply causation. Most neurobiological research with humans involves correlation, which means definitely only that there is a co-occurrence.

In order to prove causation, scientists must establish that the potential causal factor is both necessary and sufficient for the effect. This type of research can be conducted with animals. For example, in order to prove that a certain neurotransmitter causes a particular effect, one could use the following type of evidence:
a) The elimination of that neurotransmitter (for example, via a genetic knockout with deletion of a gene known to be solely responsible for the production of that hormone) results in the absence of the effect. (necessity)
AND
b) The effect is recovered by administration of the neurotransmitter. (sufficiency)
Smile Interest Url retrieved August 13, 2005 from the internet.
Causal......Cause and effect...
URL: http://www.tufts.edu/~gdallal/cause.htm

Be well,
Rob Cool
Smile I have been reviewing a number of professions that deal with "causation" and each tend to have their own definition of cause and effect or "causation".

I have an interesting URL retrieved today 8-18-05 from the internet regarding judicial law and "causation".

I wonder how many professions I can find. Five so far....
Best,
Rob Cool

URL: Allen Linden in Canadian Tort Law (Butterworths Legal Publishers, 1993, p. 99) explains:

"The most commonly employed technique for determining causation-in-fact is the "but for" test, sometimes called the sine qua non test. It works like this: if the accident would not have occurred but for the defendant's negligence, this conduct is a cause of the injury. Put another way, if the accident would have occurred just the same, whether or not the defendant acted, this conduct is not a cause of the loss. Thus, the act of the defendant must have made a difference."
Where more than one person has contributed negligent conduct resulting in damage or loss, or where the plaintiff is partly negligent, the situation is covered by "negligence acts" in place in most provinces. These statutes allow a court to find more than one person as having contributed, through their negligence, to an injury for which damages are being sought. For example, British Columbia's Negligence Act says that where, by the fault of two or more persons, loss is caused to one or more of them, the liability to make good the loss shall be in proportion to the degree in which each person was at fault (expressed as a percentage). If it is not possible to establish different degrees of fault, the liability is divided equally.

In order to successfully bring a legal action against another person for negligence, it is important that the plaintiff prove that the conduct of that person was the "proximate cause" of the damages or losses suffered by the plaintiff. It used to be that scientific evidence was needed to proof causation but, in Snell v. Farrell, Canada's Supreme Court greatly simplified things by saying (1) scientific evidence is not required and that (2) that causation can be inferred from the facts "in the absence of evidence to the contrary adduced by the defendant."

Another important distinction of this field of Canadian law is that it is not enough to show that the defendant's action caused the damages or losses but that, also, the negligence of the defendant was the "proximate cause" of the damage. In most cases, this will not be a difficulty as the damage or loss will ensue immediately from the negligence. But in other cases, there could be intervening factors, such as the actions of other persons (eg. a rescuer) , the pre-condition of the plaintiff to the damages or losses which were suffered, and any new injury suffered as a result of the original damage or loss, such as a person who, having suffered a broken leg, then falls down stairs as a result of the crutches.

In Canadian Tort Law, Mr. Linden reviews the inconsistent approach of the courts to conclude that there are "no easy answers to the remoteness and proximate cause issues." He suggests that the case law is so convoluted that the courts should approach these cases "without the blinders of directness or foresight." In the 1920s, the rule was that if an act was negligent and caused damage or loss, than it was immaterial whether the damage or loss was foreseeable or not; all damage or loss from the negligent act was recoverable. This was based on a shipping case where a piece of wood was dropped into the hold of a ship. The plank, by some quirk of the way it fell, produced a spark causing a fire which destroyed the entire ship (the case is called Re Polomis and Furness) . In 1961, the English common law courts reversed their earlier position and held in Overseas Tankship v. Mort's Dock and Engineering that: "a man must be considered to be responsible for the probable consequences of his act. To demand more of him is too harsh a rule." The new rule became "the foresight of the reasonable man." But in 1966, in a case called The Wagon Mound #2, the English high court changed the word "probable" to "possible" suggesting now that defendants be held liable to all the consequences of their act.

From that background, the Canadian courts have struggled to find or devise a made-in-Canada solution. In 1974, the Supreme Court offered that "it is not necessary that one foresee the precise concatenation of events. It is enough to fix liability if one can foresee in a general way the class or character of injury which occurred" (R. v. Cote).

Another recurring problem is what is called the "thin-skull" person. It is clear that negligent persons must take their victims as they find them. "It is no answer to the sufferer's claim for damages that he would have suffered less injury, or no injury at all, if he had not had an unusually thin skull or an unusually weak heart" (Dulieu v. White and Sons) even if death results.

In addition, a person remains liable for subsequent damages caused as a result of the original injury. In one case, a person was bitten by a dog owned by a negligent defendant, and then suffered paralysis as a result of a reaction to the tetanus injection. The dog owner was held responsible for the paralysis. Consequently, a person is liable for emotional or mental damages caused by their negligent action as long as the negligence is the proximate cause of the damage.

Liability will extend itself to a rescuer as well, for personal injuries or for property damage. Also, if there is any intervening negligence, this does not remove the original negligent party from liability, although, under the negligence acts, negligence might then be allocated between the negligent parties.
Smile I have been reviewing a number of professions that deal with "causation" and each tend to have their own definition of cause and effect or "caustion".

I have an interesting URL retrieved today 8-18-05 from the internet regarding judicial law and "causation".

I wonder how many professions I can find.
Best,
Rob Cool

URL: http://www.mackinac.org/article.aspx?ID=634
HiSmile January 18, 2006

The question is: Must there be a causal effect before we teach it?

My answer is no unless there are potential deleterious contraints involved. The real answer must be....We can teach about the brain if we are honest with the students and the public...otherwise we will never move forward. By the phrase honest with the students and the public I mean let them know if there is a high correlation and that causation may never be reached or that efforts will continue on causation if it is important enough to pursue. We can live with honesty.......
Best,
RobSmile
EveningSmile February 3, 2006

It would be great if we were able to have every scientific finding supported by causality yet, I don't believe that every scientific conclusion needs to have causal support. Reseachers and scientists need be very thorough and present causation if humanly possible...otherwise we need to move on with a high positive correlation of affect. The purpose of course must still remain to "hurt no one". Is it possible?
RobSmile
March 5, 2006

Good MorningSmile,

It seems to me that if we cannot find causality, we must move on with the highest of correlations. Always keeping in mind that we are truthful regarding the use of correlation rather than causality....but we must continue on these two fronts......(1) moving ahead with our project at the highest of correlations and (2)Striving to meet causality.
Be well,
RobSmile
June 12, 2006
Good MorningSmile
Very interesting free read on NAP retrieved today: Please take a look at the chapter on Making Causal Connections: URL: http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309069882/html/70.html

You are able to read the entire book online if you desire.....
Best,
RobSmile