I have invited Dr. Larry Squire to lunch for next month. He has not replied as yet but I received an immediate computer response from UCSD that he is not to be back at work until the end of this month. [August 05]
As we know Dr. Squire and Dr. Eric Kandel authored the great book titled,
Memory: From Mind to Molecules[I].
I was hoping that all of you might submit some questions for Dr. Squire and if he is unable to meet for lunch or coffee on campus, I will send the questions to him...otherwise they would be excellent conversation pieces. Just submit them here over the net on Teach-the Brain Forums. I like to think that he will meet. I hear he is very cordial. He is also doing work on stiming. I would like to talk with him about stiming since they are beginning to do indepth research in the UK on this. There are so many questions....please take this opportunity to ask them.
By the way I retrieved this very interesting URL from the internet (UVI)8-18-05
URL:
http://today.uci.edu/news/release_detail.asp?key=1357
Be well,
Rob
Well, I miss Christia. It kinda leaves a void. She is nice to work with. Well I found an url on the internet and retrieved it August 21, 2005...It will cover many areas other than memory, however remember memory is learning.
Best
Rob
URL:
http://ifcsun1.ifisiol.unam.mx/Brain/segunda.htm
We need to remember that memory and learning are conjoined (where and how, I am not sure) but substantial learning evolves or taken directly from memory. I have a url that I posted with memory is very important...that would be excellent for this thread. Retrieved from the internet 8-24-05.....
We are just beginning.....
Best,
Rob
URL:
http://www.bioteach.ubc.ca/CellBiology/C...ularLevel/
Hi Rob,
You wrote: " however remember memory is learning."
Which I must question?
Memory is simply where information is stored, which can be later recalled or remembered.
Though this does not mean that learning has occurred?
A computer equally has memory where information is stored for later recall.
Yet a computer doesn't learn?
I would suggest that Learning only occurs when new information is integrated with prior knowledge and experience.
Which supports cognitive development.
The term ; Applied Science as opposed to Science comes to my mind.
As does the absurd term; Applied Education ?
Though on the other hand, Applied Education could be worth consideration?
Geoff.
Hi thinkers
That we all have memory capability is obvious
That we all have different memories is obvious
Part of how we establish memory is obvious
We will all differ in how hard we work at establishing memory obviously
We will all have different priorities obviously
Therefore conclusions drawn from cognition will rarely coincide
All we can ever hope to accomplish in a modern setting is a broad consensus
Leading to decisions of action broadly for multiple benefit,
0pperating with out regard as to consequence is intolerable in today’s world
We need more thought more action and better consequences
Wellington’s words (for me the best explanation of cognition and its advantages)
"All the business of life
is like all the business of war
always trying to find out
what is on the other side of the hill
which is in fact
trying to find out WHAT YOU DO NOT KNOW
by using WHAT YOU DO KNOW"
And so we must all think, and for eternity cogitate.
geodob Wrote:Hi Rob,
You wrote: " however remember memory is learning."
Which I must question?
Memory is simply where information is stored, which can be later recalled or remembered.
Though this does not mean that learning has occurred?
A computer equally has memory where information is stored for later recall.
Yet a computer doesn't learn?
I would suggest that Learning only occurs when new information is integrated with prior knowledge and experience.
Which supports cognitive development.
The term ; Applied Science as opposed to Science comes to my mind.
As does the absurd term; Applied Education ?
Though on the other hand, Applied Education could be worth consideration?
Geoff.
Hi Geoff,
Well I am convinced that memory and learning are important together. We need in-depth learning for both. I am convinced that learning is a big part of memory. [not to memorize per se] Understanding is learning and can be a big part of memory. I retrieved the URL 8-24-05 which is pretty good.
URL:
http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:D46...n&ie=UTF-8
URL:
http://www.birthpsychology.com/lifebefore/earlymem.html
Be well,
Rob
I mentioned that I invited Dr. Larry Squire to lunch. He has returned from his sojourn and the renowned Professor of pyschiatry, neurosciences, and psychology from the University of California at San Diego has accepted my invitiation. He is coauthor of the most recent best seller
MEMORY: From mind to molecules with nobel prize winner Dr. Eric Kandel. He is really a rare find [professor] who is respected throughout the world.
If any of you have any questions about his work you would like asked, I would be happy to forward them to him. I can be reached at
segarama@aol.com
Best,
Rob
Well, I broke down and bought a new book, titled:
Neuropsychology of memory, 3rd edition, edited by Larry R. Squire and Daniel L. Schacter [2002]
Thought I would type in the PREFACE [quote] so that it might give you a better feel for the book.
Neuropsychology of Memory was published orgininally in 1984, with a second edition in 1992. The inspiration for these books came from the late Nelson Butters, who in the early l980s invited Larry Squire to join him in this venture. The volumnes have been popular, and have frequently been used as teaching texts. Nelson, we think, would have liked the idea of carrying this project forward, as he was quite proud of the first two editions. His friend and colleague Daniel Schacter has joined the venture, and the third edition was planned in the spirit as the first two. Thus, we have again invited scientists to describe in brief chapters their current approaches to the study of memory and to summarize what they have learned. We have tried to include a broard spectrum of contemporary work on the neuropsychology of memory, as there have been enourmous changes in the shape of the discipline since the apprearance of the second edition. In this edition, for example, many chapters report findings using neuroimaging techniques (positron emission tomography [PET] and functional magnetic resonance imaging [fMRI]). In 1992, PET was just being applied to the study of memory for the first time, and fMRI was not yet available. Further more, in this edition one can find studies of memory with genetically modified mice, using techniques that first became available in the l990's. We have organized the volume into three parts: "Studies of Normal and Abnormal Memory in Humans," "Studies of Memory in Nonhuman Primates," and "Studies of Memory in Rodents and Birds." Each part is prefaced by an introductory comment and the chapter within each section have been ordered to provide additional structure. We hope that readers find the result both useful and interesting, and that comparisons to the first two editions will provide an indication of how the discipline has progressed.
Larry R. Squire
Daniel L. Schacter
[ Quoted in total from the PREFACE OF THE BOOK edited by LARRY R. SQUIRE and DANIEL L. SCHACTER]
Best,
Rob
We just chatted about the key words
antegrade and retrograde......now lets add amnesia.....and say antegrade and retrograde amnesia...URL retieved on September 5, 2005 [
Antegrade and retrograde amnesia]. This should really tell us something about memory.
URL:
http://www.irishhealth.com/?level=4&id=432
Best,
Rob
Remember the Aplysia and how with gentle touches we could habitualize the Aplysia into a calm little sea slug....An example of the opposite would be if we grabbed the tail of the little sea slug [aplysia] and pinched it hard. Your chances of habitualization with this little guy is about zero. The first contact is so very important....and the aplysia who had his tail pinched is now sensitized and will not allow you to approach in a easy many. This of course is nondeclarative memory and nonconscious.
Think about a declarative assessment on a nondeclarative nonconscious product. Will you be getting any of the results that you thought you would?
Best,
Rob
segarama Wrote: Remember the Aplysia and how with gentle touches we could habitualize the Aplysia into a calm little sea slug....An example of the opposite would be if we grabbed the tail of the little sea slug [aplysia] and pinched it hard. Your chances of habitualization with this little guy is about zero. The first contact is so very important....and the aplysia who had his tail pinched is now sensitized and will not allow you to approach in a easy many. This of course is nondeclarative memory and nonconscious.
Think about a declarative assessment on a nondeclarative nonconscious product. Will you be getting any of the results that you thought you would?
Best,
Rob
Hi Rob, and welcome back from the Conference!
Perhaps in relation to how the grabbing and hard pinching of an Aplysia's tail would be oppositional to creating a 'calm little sea slug'.
I would mention a message I read yesterday from the Mother of a 10 year old boy, who has a non-verbal (comprehension) learning disorder. Of which the School and Teachers have been advised.
As this early stage of the new school year, the boy's class were given some pages of text to individually read. Given this boy's comprehension difficulties, he was unable to complete the reading in the allocated time.
So what was the Teacher's response?
The Teacher forced the Boy to come and stand in front of the whole class.
Then to publicly announce to the Class: "I am Lazy!"
Where I can't help but draw an analogy with the effect on an Aplysia, of grabbing and pinching its tail? Crucially, the habituated non-declarative response that this will create and imbed.
Where as you write: "the aplysia who had his tail pinched is now sensitized and will not allow you to approach in a easy way." Will be paralleled in the Boy, and no doubt defined as a Behaviour Problem?
Essentially I would suggest that an Individual's attitude in relation to their ability to learn. Becomes a reactive non-declarative response.
Where the careless 'pinching of the tail', during formative years.
Establishes an intrinsic habituated reaction?
Geoff.
This is certainly an important question!
Should causation be proven before policies based on correlative relationships are implemented? There are two equally important sides to consider. On one hand: is it ethical to not make use of scientifically-based practices that work? Consider, for example, how many individuals would have died if penicillin was not used in medical practice before a causal relationship was proven. On the other hand: is it ethical to make use of scientifically-based practices of which we are not fully aware of all of the possible repercussions?
What do we think?
~Christina
OECD expert Wrote:This is certainly an important question!
Should causation be proven before policies based on correlative relationships are implemented? There are two equally important sides to consider. On one hand: is it ethical to not make use of scientifically-based practices that work? Consider, for example, how many individuals would have died if penicillin was not used in medical practice before a causal relationship was proven. On the other hand: is it ethical to make use of scientifically-based practices of which we are not fully aware of all of the possible repercussions?
What do we think?
~Christina
We may look at "compromise". Even when causation is proven, there will be many anomalies due to the nature of the individual's personal makeup.
If a high degree of correlation or probabilistic causation is used as a 'go ahead' criteria, then the individual patient will need to know the risks involved. In the period of waiting approval the work on causation can continue. I would be willing to risk my life on a genuine high correlation or probabilistic causation if it was going to possibly safe my life. I would sign off on that liability.URL retrieved 9-13-05 from internet.
URL :
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/causat...abilistic/
Be well,
Rob
Thanks for this Rob. The issue of causation is extremely complicated and it is interesting to see the convolutions explored in our forum discussions. As Rob notes, individual differences will certainly play an important role when considering policy implementations. In addition, when considering the issue from a more philosophical perspective, Geoff suggested that causation is in fact, “overwhelming evidence of Correlation with a spectrum of prior knowledge†(
http://www.teach-the-brain.org/forums/sh....php?t=82). This perspective makes sense. In the scientific community, a causal relationship is established when a preceding event is both necessary and sufficient for a consequence and is consistent with our current mechanistic understanding. If results indicated that event A is necessary and sufficient for the occurrence of event B 97% of the time, it would be reasonable to implicate event A in the causation of event B. However, as Geoff mentioned, this is still technically correlative. And, as Rob reminds us, the 3% represent individual variation. In cases such as these, should we proceed to help the 97% or protect the 3%? At what percent should we shift this policy?
My asking these questions enables you to answer them and so is necessary, but does not assure that you will and so is not sufficient. Therefore, it is not causal but is a component of the cause. Much of what is treated in the medical field are components of causes. Should the field of education follow this policy?
Best,
Christina
Quote from Christina: My asking these questions enables you to answer them and so is necessary, but does not assure that you will and so is not sufficient. Therefore, it is not causal but is a component of the cause. Much of what is treated in the medical field are components of causes. Should the field of education follow this policy?
Good morning Christina,
I have a question....Could you refer me to any legal documents that require public schools to define
Causation in a particular way? With 30 years in education, I have not seen this....even in the school law class that I taught. Of course we have all been aware of causation in science...peer reviews etc. I would like to see something in writing for teaching science to children in elementary schools that has "teeth".
Thank you,
Rob
This is an interesting question Rob. I am also not aware of any legal documents that require public schools to define causation. I will look into this and let you know if I hear of anything.
All the best,
Christina
Hi
Synapses are very important...and one might think it does not belong with this particular thread. Yet if we think carefully, there would be no memories if the synapses did not function in the body.
A Synapse In The Brain Is Really Important.
Since the neuron theory evinces that each neuron be separated by each and every other neuron by a synapse or space between each neuron, we must question the degree of communication deficits that can happen and do happen to adults and children right at the area surrounding the synapse. One of the very earliest synaptic disease is called myasthenia gravis (where nerves stimulate nerve plates).
I aways thought that Parkinson's disease was due to so many dopaminergic nerves that died in the substantia nigra...well actually I am right but Parkinson's is also being referred to as a synaptic disease. Rapport, M.D., R. Nerve Endings: The discovery of the synapse: The quest to find how brain cells communicate [2005] Pg. 199.
...and now that we think clearly about the synapse and that is present throughout the body...it is truly remarkable that we have so few communication disorders. But that is not true either, we have many communcation disorders labeled under a myriad of other diseases. The synapse is very special and will need to be studied in greater depth.
Be well,
Rob
Good morning...one thing leads to ten other things and today is no exception...I have a very good URL retrieved 9-18-05 that many be of interest to you. URL:
http://hdlighthouse.org/see/index.html?brain/gage.htm Check the left column of the website and there is a plethora of good materials regarding our interests.
Best,
Rob
When speaking with Dr. Larry Squire[co-author with Dr. Eric Kandel, Memory:From mind to molecules], we were discussing causation and meeting the acid test. In that discussion the example that he used in his book regarding the Aplysia and the consequences of
habituation and
sensitization...were examples of meeting the criteria of 'necessary and sufficient'.
Best,
Rob