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Karldw, I agree that there is a huge discreptency between the application of IDEA and No Child Left Behind legislation and what is on the "book". However, in my area I can see that NCLD is working, if only because now that districts are failing in their report cards, the bad publicity is forcing change. It is painful how slowly change comes, since there are children who are not getting the education that they deserve. Fortunately there are teachers like you out there who continue to teach. What do you think is needed to be able to impliment IDEA and NCLB?
Cathy Trinh Wrote:Karldw, I agree that there is a huge discreptency between the application of IDEA and No Child Left Behind legislation and what is on the "book". However, in my area I can see that NCLD is working, if only because now that districts are failing in their report cards, the bad publicity is forcing change. It is painful how slowly change comes, since there are children who are not getting the education that they deserve. Fortunately there are teachers like you out there who continue to teach. What do you think is needed to be able to impliment IDEA and NCLB?

The problem is a political problem and it is based in cognitive terms as described by George Lakoff in the first chapter of his book “don't think of an elephant” and more completely in his book “Moral Politics”.

It is these concepts of cognitive processes that are endangered by legislation of the type mentioned above. The above laws eliminate implementation of brain science because of their demands and restrictions placed on educators. The types of thinking described in “Where Mathematics Comes From” by Lakoff and Nunez can not enter the air tight legal container that has been built. This forum should address this type of restriction as well as others brought on by technology and oppressive intellectual property laws.

This is why I posted the following in another thread.

“4th grade teacher
The national math standards finally figured out that having a broad base of math standards was better than narrowly defining math as computation skills. When I taught math to my learning disabled students, I taught them computation because that is what they qualified for. Now that we are looking at math in a broader sense, we are redefining math disabilities, also.

To which I responded
I would like to know more about these statements. What do you mean about “having a broad base of math standards..” Do you have any references on this? You imply that you do not have to teach computation now. Is that true? How do you compensate for lack of computational skills? Also, what are the new definitions of math disabilities and do you have references for this?”

The implication is that 4th grade teacher has gotten around these restrictions. I would like to understand this better.
Karldw Wrote:The papers I have read about dyscalculia indicate that less than 10% of the population suffers from dyscalculia yet we have estimates as high as 50% of the student population failing math standardized tests. What accounts for this difference? Is this also brain oriented?

Hello, your itinerant "expert" here...

I don't know much about the legal aspects of learning disabilities in the US, but to come back to this question of Karldw's about dyscalculia, it is important to realise that there are many possible reasons for having trouble in maths. A pupil could be struggling in maths class because of general learning difficulties, a lack of motivation, inadequate instruction, social factors (eg. home environment), or even another disorder specific to maths, such as maths anxiety. All of these factors are going to contribute to failure rates, but they are not what we would call dyscalculia.

It's also important to realise though that the defintion of dyscalculia is still being developed and debated, similar to that of dyslexia 30 years ago. It is a bit different from the legal definition of "specific mathematical disabilities" in the US, which is essentially more of what we would call an "operational definition". The clinical definition of dyscalculia in the DSM-IV plays a similar role.

In the cognitive neuroscience field, we as researchers are trying to build up a "brain-based" definition, which would explain difficulties in mathmatics by an underfunctioning/underconnection of specific areas in the brain which we know are relatively domain-specific to mathematics. We are fairly optimistic about how this may be done, because this type of specification and research is working well in the field of dyslexia... but only time will tell!

Anna Wilson
Dr. Wilson

I thank you for your excellent response. It has given me much to discuss.
I have read in http://www.elearnspace.org/Articles/sharing_trust.htm a blog article entitled A Dialogue: Sharing, Trust, Collaboration which contains the following:

"Activities need to be aggregated to provide value to end-users. Multiple activities with similar focuses can confuse end users. The greatest competition to ideas are other ideas ...and time. Aggregating similar ideas and concepts can foster involvement. The key to aggregation is dialogue with others ...and the resulting potential for collaboration. "

I love what it says and it speaks, I think, to the situation here, however, I do not have the discipline to take the advice. I will compromise by splitting my comments into separate posts.

My intent in these posts will be to clarify some of my thinking and to hopefully induce greater discussion. I will describe what I believe is brain research that I use to found my thinking. I will also indicate my thoughts on what I prefer as extensions to other topics in education and related issues.
Below are brief descriptions of what I take as brain research that I use to develop my thinking. I use some arbitrary classifications.

At the basic or fundamental level I include the following topics.

Brain probing

I this class I include the work of neurosurgeons. Popular writings in this area are by Walter J. Freeman, and those by William H. Calvin on the work of George A Ojemann. I believe that academics such as Calvin form an excellent bridge between research scientists who have to live in a different domain and practitioners. I look to more such people in the areas of application of brain science to education.

Brain scanning

This is the field of PET, fMRI, etc. The most important in education and mathematics is the work of Stanislas Dehaene.

EEG

This is another filed of scanning or brain probing that has a lot of education related materials but is not as well recognized.

Neuroscience

There are many good sources in the field of neuroscience but these tend to be medical school textbooks. They are particularly useful for their images that give a perspective to what you are reading elsewhere.


I use a framework structure to organize all of these and related subjects. It is a structure for what I call a BMW (Brain, Mind, World) context. The above categories are all at the brain level. In this structure brain activities are interpreted and get into the mind level. At the mind level I see the following as valid and useful concepts.

Cognitive science

I particularly like the metaphor work and in particular that of George Lakoff. He has done some good work in conjunction with Rafael Nunez about mathematics.

Other sources I would look to of this nature are the likes of John Searle, Piaget. Vygotsky, etc.

Neuropsychology

Stephen Kosslyn is one in this area that I refer to.

Well that in general provides a brief background of how I enter this domain of discussion. As I said before I am not well disciplined and tend to form my own idea of discipline.

As you go beyond the above levels I use the philosophy that the closer your work or discussion is founded in the above the closer you will be to truth and reality as perceived by humans. Prof Uwe Multhaup is a good example of work that I respect in the world beyond. He includes brain materials in his curriculum which is shaped by brain knowledge from the above types of sources.

This is a context in which I think and value things. I will later submit some specific questions that were induced by your response.
Your response certainly covered my open question very well. The question that I would like to raise at this time is closest to “inadequate instruction”. I feel that a subquestion is that of curriculum design. I am at this time going through some undergraduate lectures on linear algebra from my college. This is far different in concept from anything I had at either undergraduate or graduate levels. It is much stronger on metaconcepts and insight and less on computation which can be done by Matlab At the same time I see that the public K-12 system is recognizable by anyone from the 19th century. The only difference is that you can now get a lot of broken links in the text that go to 19h century thinking.

One of my particular peeves is the number line. I feel that this is a cognitive disaster. This is supported at the cognitive level by the likes of George Lakoff (Where Mathematics Comes From). This is a particular obstacle when you try to go to complex numbers and present teaching does not provide a good cognitive base to the proper use of calculators.

I would like to know what others think and also are there any brain scanning materials related to the brain and number lines?
Here is another of my peeves about elementary education – numbers. I believe that there is a disconnect between how math is introduced to the student and cognition and the history of the development of mathematics. I believe that this disconnect is reflected in failure rates.

In my experience there are math abilities in a student that present curriculum and assessment techniques do not uncover and/or build on. Are there new developments at the application level that I am not aware of? If so where? What are they founded on? I am not now thinking in terms of maladies such as dyscalculia but of main stream teaching.
Since corresponding on this forum, I have gained some good information on expectations and standards in the area of math. For the past couple of weeks, I have had my principal and ESL teachers trying to determine the best way to approach the state's test.
This week they met with our state superintendent. They were hoping she would give them some guidance on what to expect from ESL students, and perhaps some leniency on the testing. Apparently, she is very supportive of not testing students who have been in the country less than three years, or have not tested out of the program. But, the state legislature needs to decide the testing guidelines, she can only suggest them. It gets back to politics.
In the meantime, I continually try to find as many ways as I can to keep all my students learning. I tried looking at the education system of Mexico online, but my computer said I had a virus and I have to deal with that, now. So, I appreciate the suggestion to look at other countries' math curriculums, and I will keep pursuing that. If there is anyone that can tell me exactly where to go online that would be helpful.
Thank you Cathy, for your help and support.
I'm sorry I don't know the person referred to in the message about the U of W (Washington). I am most familiar with Dr. Eric Chudler, but I have also met the instructors of the Brain Research in Education online course. Two or three of them take responsibility for each of the three quarters of classes.
Tomorrow night is Math Night at our school. We are inviting families to come in the evening to see some of the things our classes do with math. I will be providing activities in measurement. (There's a good topic for world wide discussion -- the problems with having American measurement and the rest of the world having metric. ) I will have some science projects there, as well, to illustrate the bond between science and math by using measurement.
Math, math, math. So simple, and so complicated.
These are some sites for University of Washington people that may be of interest.

William H. Calvin
http://www.williamcalvin.com/


George A. Ojemann.
http://depts.washington.edu/neurosur/fac...emann.html



Eric H. Chudler, Ph.D.
http://faculty.washington.edu/chudler/ehc.html
4th grade teacher Wrote:... They were hoping she would give them some guidance on what to expect from ESL students, and perhaps some leniency on the testing. Apparently, she is very supportive of not testing students who have been in the country less than three years, or have not tested out of the program. But, the state legislature needs to decide the testing guidelines, she can only suggest them. ... I tried looking at the education system of Mexico online, ... So, I appreciate the suggestion to look at other countries' math curriculums, and I will keep pursuing that. If there is anyone that can tell me exactly where to go online that would be helpful.
...
Math, math, math. So simple, and so complicated.


I do not think that progress will be made using traditional education examples, whether they come from above or from outside a country. My expectations come from sources such as this that are brain based reasoning. I would like to know how your courses at U of W affected your thinking about math. Did you cover any of the brain scan data from people such as Stanislas Dehaene? Did they cover cognitive concepts such as those of Lakoff and Nunez?

I believe that the present concept of testing is wrong. Big stakes testing is punitive and not constructive unless you consider retention and denial of an education constructive. In my work with special ed students almost everything was testing. The one thing you know is that the brain of the special ed student is not like those that are in the population for which curriculum and evaluation were developed. This means that you have to find out just how the students brain is structured, i. e., everything is testing but for evaluation not ranking or classifying.

If a society does not feel responsible for the overhead costs of education then it will pay the direct social costs later. Government must act responsibly as a leader of society and not in the self interests of the empowered.

At this time there is a movement for a new paradigm for education. I want to see the new paradigm shaped by brain knowledge because the closer you are to the brain the closer you are to understanding. Forums such as this are critical. The gap between research and practice is getting larger and only forums like this can address that problem.

Not knowing what your courses covered I will still say that the training you got at U of W should be available to all teachers. With your background in practice and training how do you see a new educational structure for math?

Math is simple. Basketball is simple if you are seven feet tall. Being a jockey is not simple if you weigh 280 pounds.
Thanks Karldw for submitting those references, Dr Wilson may be able to provide some more pointers for you for further reading. 4th grade teacher, we are interested to learn more about how your Maths Night went, perhaps if you have a future one you could add a brain perspective. I wonder if there are other teachers out there that done similar initiatives?
Dear all,

Hello, I have been called to add some input, so here I am again!

First of all, I thought I might post a little about my who I am and my background, because this will help put my contributions into perspective:
I am currently a Post-Doctoral Fellow, working in Paris in the lab of Stanislas Dehaene. I am working on developmental dyscalculia: particularly its etiology and plasticity (ie. potentional for remediation). I have a PhD from The University of Oregon in cognitive psychology. My PhD was on normal adult numerical cognition, with a supporting area in mathematical disabilities and special education.

I wanted to add a comment on the number line issue mentioned by Karldw - you asked if there were any studies related to the brain and number line.

The main reference would be Stanislas Dehaene's work, a good place to start would be "The Number Sense", his 1997 book which reviews all of the relevant research. A good recent review would be the following: Stanislas Dehaene, Nicolas Molko, Laurent Cohen, and Anna Wilson. Arithmetic and the brain. Current Opinion in Neurobiology, 14:218-224, 2004. Download pdf here.

You can also check out our lab website at http://www.unicog.org, this website stays up to date with all our findings, if you click on "Numbers" on the menu, there is an outline of the numerical cognition research we do, as well as a reading list, and links to pdfs of our articles.

Based on this research, we think that the number line ought to be an essential teaching aide, in fact the computer remediation that I have developed (shortly to appear on the OECD website) is partially based on the number line concept.

I agree that it probably does not help in understanding complex numbers, but on the other hand, this does not mean that it doesn't help with the basics. What might be interesting is to think about how to help a transition from one metaphor to the other.

Anna Wilson.
Karldw Wrote:I would like to know what others think and also are there any brain scanning materials related to the brain and number lines?

Stanislas Dehaene's "The Number Sense" has a lot of very interesting presentations. In Chapter one, “Babies who count”, is a very interesting observational experiment using various numbers of puppets or objects. I have done this in an ad hoc way with fingers and been surprised at how well it works.

Chapter 3 ,The adult number line, Subitizing, is well covered and I believe it may have ramifications broader than those claimed in the book. The chapter also contains number comparison data that is I think practical and interesting. All of these results are based on response time data.

Chapter 7 “Losing Number Sense” has some very good brain based information, however, as far as I can see this is all based on computation and number comparisons. Granted, these concepts can be described using a number line model but I did not see confirmation that the subjects were actually operating using the number line.

Chapter 8, The Computing Brain, is also based on computation and comparison.

The document “Arithmetic and the brain” is also very interesting ,however, it also is about arithmetic and not the number line. Download pdf here http://www.unicog.org/publications/Dehae...ol2004.pdf

Yes I agree that the number line can be a model for the subjects to use but how do we know they used it?

The statement “Based on this research, we think that the number line ought to be an essential teaching aide” is a very good subjective statement and I accept it completely. However what I am looking for is objective evidence of the number line in the brain. I am not sure that you can see the number line because it is an abstraction, however, numbers are also abstractions and I am amazed at what has been found about them. I think that a lot of the number revelations are seated in evolution and long time social development.

The site

http://members.aol.com/jeff570/mathword.html

gives the following as the earliest known use for the concepts “number line”.

My comments in [ ]


NUMBER LINE. An earlier term was scale of numbers.


In 1912, First Year Algebra by Webster Wells and Walter W. Hart has: "Thus, the positive and negative numbers together form a complete scale extending in both directions from zero."

[It appears that the concept is a 20th century concept – still less than 100 years old]


Lawrence M. Henderson, "An Alternative Technique for Teaching Subtraction of Signed Numbers," The Mathematics Teacher, Nov. 1945 has: "In teaching subtraction of signed numbers, I first draw a number scale."

[I prefer the term “number scale because that is closer to what it is. The concept includes a measure and hence is a scale. The concept of a line is only one of direction. The fact that there is a measure (arbitrary) ith the “number line” and the fact that it is horizontal and directed to the right is a mater that is convention and is induced into the student by use. ]

Number line is found in January 1956 in "An exploratory approach to solving equations" by Max Beberman and Bruce E. Meserve in The Mathematics Teacher: "In an earlier paper we described a procedure by which students could 'solve' equations and inequalities using a number line. The set of points on a number line is in one-to-one correspondence with the set of real numbers."

end quote

This to me is very interesting because it is such a new idea.

So I am back to my original question - “Can the abstraction of number line be seen in a brain scan independent of arithmetic operations?”
I’ve been asked about the course I took in Brain Research for Educators. It consisted of three quarters: first quarter was on the physiology of the brain and nervous system, second quarter on levels of brain research, and the third was on application to curriculum, K-12. This was an intensive course, but through it I gained much insight into how people learn, and in turn it has influenced my teaching. One thing that became apparent
During this class was how much emotion has to do with memory and motivation. In our forum we discussed teaching techniques such as cooperative learning and using multiple intelligences to create safe and motivating environments.
Another thing that I became aware of was being conscious about using brain research in applying teaching strategies. James Brynes wrote the book Minds, Brains, and Learning in which he states neurological research and then associates the psychological and educational relevance that applies. He tries to show how much brain research can be “commercialized” and over used, especially in the educational field. Everyone wants the smartest child. So, although I now have a greater awareness of the physical properties of the nervous system, I still have to rely on my experience as a teacher, and deal with the behaviors of students using those experiences to find the best results.
I try to educate my colleagues as much as I can about the effects of emotional health and how it impacts learning and memory. This is extremely hard to do, because of the nature of the teaching system. It is very competitive, and teachers are hard to influence. I have had some luck getting them to see beyond the district guidelines, pointing out the flaws in the system, for example using the state test to judge ourselves in improving our math curriculum. But, we still use it, because it is easy.
I read with interest a couple of the sites provided by Anna. I was particularly interested in the discussion of the parts of the brain processing internal manipulations of quantities vs. those processing times tables. It’s very apparent that these are two different types of thinking skills in learning math, and students often excel at one or the other rather than both at the same rate. This is what I see happening with students coming from other countries. Internal manipulations of quantities may be linked to those processes we use in problem solving. Could there be any connection between those processes and background knowledge, in other words the culture in which the child grows up?
I’m also curious about the study on impairments of number processing as being associated with fetal alcohol syndrome. Is this only an impairment of number processing, or is it also related to processing language, as in reading?
I realize I’ve been referred to in a number of messages from Karl of Walden Pond, and I regret that I haven’t paid better attention to his questions. I hope some of my response above may help answer those questions.
As for Math Night, it went very well. All grade levels had age appropriate activities for parents and students to become involved in. I provided activities on measurement, and had my students’ science projects on display to demonstrate the math used in them.
I just finished a unit on health, which included learning about the brain and neurons, and pathways. The brain is a fascinating subject, even for 10 year olds. I have made brain research a part of our school’s transformation plan, which means we have goals to use more of it. I have a guest neuroscientist coming next week to visit my classroom from the U of Washington. They are very active in reaching out to the school community.
I recently assessed my class for mid year progress in math. Most are showing higher scores than in the fall, but there are a few who aren’t. For some of those, lack of interest in taking a test has a lot to do with it, because I have seen them produce results on daily work. A couple of them have me thrown for a loop – they show little, if any progress, and they have had all sorts of intervention from after school tutoring to pull out groups during non math times. My gut feeling is that they are not emotionally prepared, and that they need more time. This is fine by me, but I am expected to have them at grade level. I wish we could devise an assessment that gives students more time to show growth, and keeps them in age appropriate settings.
Well, that’s all for now.
Karldw Wrote:So I am back to my original question - “Can the abstraction of number line be seen in a brain scan independent of arithmetic operations?”

Karldw, you are essentially right that there is of yet no objective evidence of an actual number line in the brain. Even at this point in cognitive neuropsychology, it is at the end of the day still a metaphor, we say that subjects perform in numerical cognition experiments *as if* they had an internal number line. We still do not know exactly how quantities are represented by the brain. We are now pretty sure that neurons in the IPS (Intra Parietal Sulcus) code for quantity, but we do not know how, and in what way this would reflect the metaphor of a number line. It might be that the neurons are physically arranged so that there is a "map" with neurons at one end responding to small quantities, and neurons at the other end responding to large quantities. However, it might be the case that the representations are completely distributed, and there is an emergent property of a "number line", in that the system behaves in a way which is coherent with the metaphor.

Of course this is one of the major topics of research in the lab! More has been discovered since Stan wrote his book, but it is just a start, and it will probably take some years to resolve... in the meantime, here are a couple of other articles that are relevant to the question (although they are very technical):

Stanislas Dehaene. Single-Neuron Arithmetic. Science, 297:1652--1653, 2002.

Manuela Piazza, Veronique Izard, Philippe Pinel, Denis Le Bihan, and Stanislas Dehaene. Tuning curves for approximate numerosity in the human intraparietal sulcus.. Neuron, 44(3):547-55, October 2004.

Stanislas Dehaene and Jean-Pierre Changeux. Development of elementary numerical abilities: A neuronal model. Journal Cognitive Neuroscience, 5:390--407, 1993. - sorry no pdf for this one on the site, so requires a visit to the library, but it is interesting to explain in detail one possibility for the way in which neurons might represent number. (And an emergent property of the system *would* be a number line)

Another important point, which is for research way down the line - we don't know for sure that the internal number line (if it exists) is not established by culture and education! We know that there is some flexibility, you might have read in The Number Sense that when Dehaene and colleagues tested subjects who had learnt maths in Arabic, they showed a reverse number line, with large numbers associated with the left, and small with the right. Eventually we hope that studies looking at how numerical cognition circuits and brain areas change over the course of development and education will provide us with an answer to the "plasticity" of the number line.
4th grade teacher Wrote:I was particularly interested in the discussion of the parts of the brain processing internal manipulations of quantities vs. those processing times tables. It’s very apparent that these are two different types of thinking skills in learning math, and students often excel at one or the other rather than both at the same rate. This is what I see happening with students coming from other countries. Internal manipulations of quantities may be linked to those processes we use in problem solving. Could there be any connection between those processes and background knowledge, in other words the culture in which the child grows up?

I’m also curious about the study on impairments of number processing as being associated with fetal alcohol syndrome. Is this only an impairment of number processing, or is it also related to processing language, as in reading?

In response to this first issue, it is interesting to hear that you have observed that kids' performance on quantity manipulation vs. fact recall tends to be different. It's important to note that the field is still somewhat divided over this question, if you look at the work of Jamie Campbell (who btw has a new book out, though it is probably pretty technical), and Brian Butterworth, they disagree with Dehaene's proposal that facts are just stored in a verbal format. Campbell argues that they can be stored in additional formats (eg. visual), and Butterworth argues that they are stored in a semantic (meaning-based) way. In reality it may be that they are stored in a combination of ways, or it may depend on the individual. I have to say I am rather biased towards Dehaene's point of view, because I am really crap at times tables and mental arithmetic, but excellent in all other aspects of maths. I just use a calculator to get by the former!

In any case, to the extent that math facts and counting sequences are stored verbally, children (and adults) will have trouble switching to maths in another language. There are no studies on this that I know of, although there is one study in which bilingual adults were *taught* new facts (large cubes or squares, I think) in one language, and then tested either in the same or different language. They were much worse in the language that the facts weren't taught in, of course.
The reference for this is: Spelke, E. S., & Tsivkin, S. (2001). Language and number: A bilingual training study. Cognition, 78(1), 45-88.

RE numerical impairments in foetal alcohol syndrome, in the study I mentioned, they looked at performance on a variety of tasks in adolescents and adults diagnosed with FAS. The tasks included number reading and writing, exact calculation (addition, multiplication, subtraction), approximate calculation (selecting a plausible result for an operation), number comparison, proximity judgment, and cognitive estimation.

They found that subjects showed difficulties in calculation and estimation tests, with intact number reading and writing ability. So essentially they didn't show a very clear dissociation between verbal and non verbal numerical tasks. The reading and writing tasks were probably a lot easier than the other tasks, so the fact that they were unimpaired does not necessarily mean too much.
The full reference for this is: Kopera-Frye, K., Dehaene, S., & Streissguth, A. P. (1996). Impairments of number processing induced by prenatal alcohol exposure. Neuropsychologia, 34(12), 1187-1196.

BTW, there is also a study associating reduced grey matter in the Intra Parietal Sulcus with dyscalculia associated with premature birth:
Isaacs, E. B., Edmonds, C. J., Lucas, A., & Gadian, D. G. (2001). Calculation difficulties in children of very low birthweight: A neural correlate. Brain, 124(9), 1701-1707.
Anna
Thanks for the great response. You have kept me quiet for a while while I review the articles and think.

Best
Karl
Another good general article to add to your reading piles, this is a recent review by Geary:
Geary, D. C. (2004). Mathematics and learning disabilities. Journal of Learning Disabilities, 37(1), 4-15.
OECD Wrote:Do you encounter math difficulties in your students? .

As usual Dr. Wilson gives us much to think about. In this post I would like to focus on children, abstraction, metaphor, numbers, and learning. My suggestion is that the way that numbers, number processes, and teaching are presented to children create a confusion that obstructs the learning process.

I read the following in a students online site.

“I remember when I was your age being quite confused by the difference between cardinal numbers and ordinal numbers. Now I realize that it was probably because my teachers were confused as well!

When I was your age, the best explanation I got was something muddled like, "three" is a cardinal; "third" is an ordinal.

The reason for all the confusion is that the difference is a fairly deep subject in mathematics, but I'll try to explain it.”

I believe that much of our thinking comes from metaphors that we acquire in life. The above indicates that these metaphors endure to the extent that they are not clarified even to educated adults. ( By the way the explanation that followed did little for me. The subject is “deep” in mathematics because our confusion puts it there. We place it in number theory rather than cognitive science where it belongs.)

The crux of the issue is that we are confused by abstractions of concepts and abstractions of processes. The confusion of concept is the meaning of “number” and the confusion of process is with those processes we use numbers for.

“Number” can mean many things. A number is a symbol. We can impose on these symbols the property of order which then leads to the concept of ordinal numbers. We can then say that the symbols need the properties that we require for counting and they then become cardinal numbers. If we then impose the properties that we require for measuring, i. e. a metric, we can then build things like the number line. All of these are mathematical abstracts of concept.

The problem is that for each concept there is associated at least one process. For the symbol there is language. For the ordinal number there is the process of ordering. For cardinal numbers there is the process of counting that leads to the processes of addition and subtraction that leads us into a huge morass ( a soft wet low-lying area of land that sinks under foot) of ideas.

As children develop in the real world they acquire many metaphors about numbers and their associated processes. I believe this is supported by the Geary reference
( http://www.uth.tmc.edu/clinicalneuro/ins...Geary2.pdf )
and the following extracts from that report.


“Children's understanding of the principles associated with counting appears to emerge from a combination of inherent constraints and counting experience

inherent constraints five implicit principles.

1)one-to-one correspondence (one and only one word tag, e.g., one, two, is assigned to each counted object),
2)stable order (the order of the word tags must be invariant across counted sets),
3)cardinality (the value of the final word tag represents the quantity of items in the counted set),
4)abstraction (objects of any kind can be collected together and counted), and
5)order irrelevance (items within a given set can be tagged in any sequence).


In addition to these inherent constraints,

children make inductions about the basic characteristics of counting by observing standard counting behavior and associated outcomes “
(I will return to this idea of observation below)

“result in a belief that certain unessential features of counting are essential. These unessential features include

standard direction (counting must start at one of the endpoints of a set of objects) and

adjacency. The latter is the incorrect belief that items must be counted consecutively and from one contiguous item to the next that is, jumping around during the act of counting results in an incorrect count.”


The above portrays a learning process that is confused and not entirely controlled. It is not cognitively well founded and the students become victimized by this environment and it appears that a part of this confusion comes from the education system itself. Geary states that “young children's conceptual understanding of counting is rather rigid and immature and is influenced by the observation of standard counting procedures.” I believe that the “observation” part of the statements includes a social aspect, i. e., external to the curriculum.

Geary then looks at reading disabilities (RD) and mathematics learning disabilities (MLD) and states “Many children with MLD/RD, however, did not understand Gelman and Gallistel's (1978) order irrelevance principle and believed that adjacency is an essential feature of counting. ... even in second grade, many children with MLD/RD and MLD only do not understand all counting principles”.

My question to everyone is how much of this malady should be assigned to the child as MLD and how much should be assigned to social inadequacies and where is the curriculum is this morass? Is this a practical problem for brain scanning or cognitive neuropsychology?

One reference I use in these matters is the book “Where Mathematics Comes From” by George Lakoff and Rafael E. Nunez,
OECD Wrote:Do you encounter math difficulties in your students? And if so how do you cope with these challenges? Are there any formal measures within your school infrastructure to help identify and deal with math difficulties.
Please pose any questions you might have now to our OECD science expert in math difficulties.


The following comes from a children's dictionary.
number (nuhm-bur)
1. noun A word or symbol used for counting and for adding and subtracting.

Notice how the concepts of a symbol and the processes of counting, addition and subtraction are confounded. Symbols are likely processed by the brain in a very different manner from processes. The process of counting is a different mathematical abstraction from that of addition. You can have counting without having addition. The requirements on the operation of addition are far more extensive than those for counting. The process of subtraction does not even arise in definitions of mathematical abstractions. It is the name given to the inverse of addition. Also there is no mention of the concept of order which is implied in counting and addition.

Does anyone know how the brain processes symbols and procedures? If mathematicians make distinctions between counting and addition should children have these concepts commingled? Is it proper to present addition and subtraction as separate processes when they are inverses? Can these presentations confuse a student? Is the presentation cognitively sound?
OECD Wrote:Do you encounter math difficulties in your students? And if so how do you cope with these challenges? Are there any formal measures within your school infrastructure to help identify and deal with math difficulties.
Please pose any questions you might have now to our OECD science expert in math difficulties.

I have read the postings in this thread and find them very interesting. I notice that there is not much dialog however I will ask a question. As I read the posts I am confused as to how the brain enters into elementary math teaching. My question is, “What is the connection between elementary math and the brain?”
Bea Esser Wrote:I have read the postings in this thread and find them very interesting. I notice that there is not much dialog however I will ask a question. As I read the posts I am confused as to how the brain enters into elementary math teaching. My question is, “What is the connection between elementary math and the brain?”
Welcome to the forum Bea. I just want to comment on your observation that there is little dialog here. I am sure if you came in with an urgent question you would get a reply, however, I do not think that at this stage of development dialog is the measure for this type of community. There was a thread that had only 1 reply and yet there were over 200 views. This thread has broken the 1000 view mark. If you check the “who's on line” page you will see that better than 95% of the viewers are “guest”. I think that there are reasons for this but I will not get into that now.

Welcome again and though I did not, I hope someone else will answer your question.
Bea Esser Wrote:I have read the postings in this thread and find them very interesting. I notice that there is not much dialog however I will ask a question. As I read the posts I am confused as to how the brain enters into elementary math teaching. My question is, “What is the connection between elementary math and the brain?”


The following is taken from a paper “Re-approaching Nearness: Online Communication and it's place in Praxis” by Ulises Ali Mejias. It is available at
http://firstmonday.org/issues/issue10_3/...index.html
The paper is written under a Creative Commons license that is “Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivs 2.0”


I believe that this paper is an excellent explanation of the reason that Bea recognizes the lack of dialog on this forum. The paper is also relevant because it is an explanation of brain dynamics that relates to education and learning.

All ideas here are from the paper. Only the application is original. The model is more extensive than that given here and if you are interested I recommend that you read the paper.

On the web, and particularly in a forum of this nature we feel that there is a lot of information to process and we want to turn that information into something we can use in our immediate environment.

“Modern communication technologies have supposedly brought about the death of distance. While this might be true when it comes to geographic distance, this apparent success has not been replicated when it comes to epistemological distance. By epistemological distance I mean to suggest that some objects are more "knowable" to us than others: objects that are epistemologically near are things that we have been conditioned to know and understand well, while objects that are epistemologically far are things that we have been conditioned to view as unknowable, foreign, or irrelevant. Things that are epistemologically far can be referred to as a generalized Other.”

“The way we make things epistemologically near or far, or more or less relevant, is through communication.”

“Communication with means that we make the Other relevant to us by engaging it in discourse (i.e., communication is dialogic). The Other might be physically near or far, but the fact that we communicate directly with it means that we make it epistemologically near. Communication about, on the other hand, means that we make the Other less relevant, or epistemologically far, by failing to recognize it as an entity that can be engaged dialogically (i.e., communication is monologic).
“In a normative sense, then, to move from communicating about the Other to communicating with the Other is to move towards increased relevancy. This movement constitutes a praxis, or a prescription for action. In our present–day context, praxis means bringing epistemologically near 1) that which is epistemologically far (that which remains foreign to us, and towards which we are prejudiced against) and 2) that which is physically near but which has been rendered irrelevant. In both cases, moving from communicating about to communicating with can bring the epistemologically far and the physically near closer to us.”

“An important point to realize is that communication with is always preceded by communication about. In other words, it is crucial to understand that this move from about to with, this praxis, is anti–teleological (i.e., it does not seek a pre–established end). Communication with is not an end that can be reached with any finality. Instead, praxis is an ongoing process in which turns in life are constantly requiring that we communicate about new Others, and eventually move to communicating with them, only to find out that this has created more Others to communicate about. Praxis is anti–teleological in that what matters is not the end, but the ongoing process; not the conclusions, but the procedures for arriving at those conclusions.”
Thanks Karldw for your reflections and references on electronic dialogue. You may be aware of an influential article which was written by John Bruer that questioned the value of pursuing linkages between neuroscience and education (Bruer, 1997). Based on a review of the literature at that time, it appeared to Bruer that the gulf between the two fields was “a bridge too far.” We started this project in 1999 with our mission to try to dissolve slowly this bridge between the education and scientific fields. We began dialogue with meetings between these different disciplines and forming networks and discussion groups. Now in the second phase of the this project, we have opened up this forum as we have been particularly encouraged by teachers expressing an interest to learn more about what brain science can offer education . We hope to analyse from these forum discussions what teachers could "teach" neuroscientists for the direction of focus for future research in this field. These forums have been an ambitious, experimental project for us, and we are excited by the depth and quality of communication so far. As you will note we have invited some scientific experts to intervene on some threads, and we hope that this dialogue between practitioners and scientists will just grow and grow.
OECD Wrote:You may be aware of an influential article which was written by John Bruer that questioned the value of pursuing linkages between neuroscience and education (Bruer, 1997). .

I believe that the Breur paper and the Mejias papers are about different things. Breur was pointing out and describing an exploitive situation that was going on in education. The Mijias paper draws on communication theory such as that of Habermas to describe what we have to do here to understand and help the followers of this forum.

The paper “Education and the Brain: A Bridge Too Far”, Educational Researcher, November 1997, by John Bruer can be obtained at

http://www.jsmf.org/about/j/education_and_brain.htm

I believe that his intent in that paper is essentially summarized in “A Conversation with John Bruer” at
http://www.brainconnection.com/topics/?main=conv/bruer


In that conversation Bruer says:
“The problem is that there is now this huge cottage industry of brain-based education. It consists of a mixture of very basic but quite dated results from cognitive science and experimental psychology mixed in with really bad brain science”

I believe he is entirely correct about what has been happening. I also believe that the condition he describes leads to the difficulty that some readers of this list are having now. The simplicity of the original brain based educational efforts presented to teachers are confusing them and they are having trouble making what they see here relevant to their everyday life.

The article further states
“I also think that somewhere down the road brain science may lead us to the possibility of having many different educational models.”

“From this perspective, brain science may be able a few decades from now to give us insights into what kind of learning styles individuals will find difficult and which are likely to be more natural for them.”

I think that he just did not have the opportunity to interact with the right people. As I understand there is a book coming out at the end of the year that will have a chapter describing how brain science was applied to problems in reading and math. This was occurring at about the time that Bruer was making the above statements.

A part of the problem is that Breuer and others see the brain and the mind in two different disciplines. He says the brain belongs to neurologists and the mind to psychologists. What is happening now is that these two and others are suddenly in a common arena and they are having trouble relating. What is needed is a unifying concept. I have seen some work that creates a framework in which the world, the brain, and the mind can be located. It is not a model though it can induce philosophies of the BMW complex. Through concepts such as this it is possible to think in a related manner about brain scans and cognitive ideas. In other words it may be possible to think about the work of Dehaene, Lakoff, and Vygotsky all at the same time. This provides the practitioner with a tool to assemble the otherwise diverse comments that go through a forum like this.
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