I must admit that when 'constructivism' first came along that I began to really down play memory in my thoughts. I believed that understanding was the key to everything and it may be however, but a big paradigm that I had, needed to shift and it finally has.
Memory and to memorize something are not the same thing.
The book by Larry Squire and Eric Kandel titled Memory:From minds to molecules places 'Memory' as a direrct function of the brain and even more so, it tends to allow us to be human. If possible, I would like to stay on this particular topic for a bit since, it has so much to offer. I know that I brought up 'nondeclarative' and 'declarative' memory awhile back but it has led me to so many new directions in the brain that I am not sure where to start. The old saw "use it or lose it" is a metaphor that can be applied to the brain and the biological functioning of the memory system. It seems that when I was a teenager, I remember that the pool filtering system at the high school would not work well unless, we 'backwashed' the system and got rid of the so called plaque or residue. We watch our cholesterol to keep our blood lines clear for our heart to pump properly and we are concerned about plaques and tangles et al. in our brain. It seems that there are at least three distinctive diagnostic features found in the servere dementia of Alzheimer disease. "(1) again we find plaque [senile] in the hippocampus and cerebral cortex, (2) neurofibrillary tangles, and (3) loss of neurons". Squire and Kandel have really gone a step further.....without getting too technical again, the plaque or in this "case senile plaque consists of extracellular deposits of a protein substance called amyloid". The amyloid eventually becomes an "amyloid precursor protein", a protein that can normally be found in neurons or nerve cells. "Its function in healthy brains is not yet known".
There are many directions to go when speaking of MEMORY. Unconscious memory or nondeclarative memory compared to conscious memory or declarative memory is not even close to being the same thing. As a matter of fact in proving that we have an unconscious memory is indeed 'causal'.
Those that are interested in memory, it is an important part of learning and an important part of constructivist learning also.
Rob
Segarama
Thanks for this Rob. Yes, the principle, “use it or lose it,†can be applied to the brain. Neural circuitry is reinforced and strengthened with use. Further, it can be reconstructed in response to frequent use as well. Squire and Kandel also describe very interesting situations in which brain circuitry is actually re-wired to facilitate more efficient processing (as in expert chess players).
An important concept in all of this is that structure underlies function in the brain. Functional changes reflect structural modifications. It is remarkable to consider that all of our memories have physical manifestations in our brain: the people we have known, the places we have been… our past is literally a physical a part of us. It is fun to stop and think sometimes that the activities we are currently engaged in are being etched into our brain; it is our canvas and we are the artist.
~Christina
I believe a big step is being taken by the
unification of many of the scientific subfields of biochemistry, genetics, cell biology, development, and cancer research that have now been united into one coherent field of
molecular biology. Speaking of structure and function that characterizes organism's cells, a unification or continuity is occuring with animal species. This is most interesting since as Squires and Kandel put it "from this perspective has also come a marvelous sense of fundamental universality of nature".
If at all possible, please keep this particular thread related to MEMORY. I appologize for this request, but I am having difficulty "jumping" from one subject to another without getting additional closure from those who want to reply on this subject...I am sorry for this request.
The coming together of cross disciplines of subject matter is what the nascent International Mind, Brain, and Education Society headed by Professor Kurt Fischer from Harvard University is presently doing.
Struture and function......
Thanks
Rob
Segarama
http://www.imbes.org/
Hi Rob,
We have labeled this thread "sticky" so that it will stay at the top of the forum.
Hope this is helpful,
Christina
We already reviewed the first unification of biological sciences into a coherent field of
molecular biology. Then a second and very important unification has happened through the mental processes, by the convergence of systems neuroscience and cognitive psychology, and we call the second unification
cognitive neuroscience
In the book by Squire and Kandel titled MEMORY: From mind to molecules, they claim "the beginnings of a third unification....a new synthesis....whereby molecular biology and cognitive neroscience are themselves being combined." The new synthesis is called
molecular biology of cognition.
It is felt that this will complete[for now] the unification from mind to molecule.
"The unification of molecular biology and cognitive neuroscience is specifically illuminating the two components of memory that .......been considered by Squire and Kandel:
the memory systems of the brain and the mechanisms of memory storage.
This is really profound material by Squire and Kandel...
Later,
Rob
Segarama
The simplest kind of nondeclarative memory is
habituation. We are only dealing with two different types of memory for now and that is nondeclarative and declarative memory.
nondeclarative memory
a. habituation is the simplest...
We all experience forms of
habituation almost everyday. This is an unconscious form of memory as contrasted with declarative memory which is conscious. Habituation often is a motor type of nondeclarative memory such as riding a bicyle, or driving a car. Habituation is the simplest for animals also. Behaviorist really didn't observe or venture a care about habituation being
unconscious or being an
unconscious memory to
retrieve. Later on behaviorist played an important part in realizing that rules that apply to simple forms of nondeclarative memory are very general and also apply to experimental animals, even the most simple ones. [Squire and Kandel]
In Squires and Kandel's book titled Memory: From mind to molecules they include the following: "
Habituation also operates to eliminate inappropriate or exaggerated defensive responses.This is illustrated in the following fable from Aesop."
A Fox, who had never seen a turtle, when he fell in with him for the first time in the forest was so frightened that he was a near dying with fear. On his meeting with him for the second time, he was still much alarmed but not to the same extent as the first. On seeing him the third time, he was so increased in boldness that he went up to him and conmensed a familiar conversation with him.If we study
habituation in experimental animals, we can see first evidence of how learning and memory storage takes place in the brain. This again shows the tremendous need for a collaboration of sciences and education. It will be interesting to see all of the kinds of
habituation that we can name; along with the retrieval of this
unconscious form of nondeclarative memory. Learning indepth will take time but yield massive rewards in the end. There has to be hundreds of examples of habituation out there. I challenge you...
Best,
Rob
Segarama
Hi Rob,
Thanks for the insightful article highlighting the association between habituation and non-declarative memory!
Which really unlocks the mystery?
Crucially it unlocks an understanding of habituation!
As a non declarative activity.
Which is essentially motor skill based.
As an 'habitual tobacco smoker', I can 'only' smoke whilst 'sitting down'.
If I see someone smoking whilst standing or walking, I feel somewhat disgusted?
Which is quite a contradiction?
Yet I have held a speculation that my smoking is not an 'addiction', but rather an 'habituation'?
Where I now view this as an habitual non-declarative motor activity?
Which also suggests that the extensive Non-Smoking campaign in Australia that focusses on Declarative information.
May in fact be missing the target?
Where a change in non-declarative behaviour may be the real solution?
I also recall numerous TV programs on 'injectable drug addicts'. Where the addicts noted the actual importance of the procedure of injecting drugs. Which is non-declarative activity.
My basic point, as an extension of your association of habituation with non declarative memory. Is that in relation to education? That students need to be helped to gain control and shape their personal non-declarative memory?
Whilst declarative information may inform their position.
It is the non declarative memory that importantly has overarching control?
That shapes one's daily and life-long behaviour?
Yet I am only using this to support my statement to many teenager's, that the greatest thing that they can learn? Is to be a master controller of the habits that they develop, to carry them throughout life.
So perhaps the development and mastery of non declarative memory is of far greater importance than appreciated?
Yet a more precise understanding of non declarative memory may be helpful?
I have a non declarative impulse to have a 'smoke'. So I'll finish off here?
Geoff.
Hi Geoff, Well I really thought that memory was not all this important but was I ever wrong. We are dealing with unconscious memory [nondeclarative] and conscious memory [declarative memory] They run on two parallel neural pathways. By the way, nondeclarative memory remains
unconscious. I think this is profound. We can add bicycling, driving a car, swimming (once you really learn) to the unconscious nondeclarative memory. These are memories that are unconscious and tend to never let you down.
:o
Habituation is also nondeclarative and we know that this helps us tolerate the TV, Grandkids yelling (playing..sorry) CD going, and driving your car with the noise of the freeway.........Habituation gives us some relief and we can shut out most of the noise and concentrate on our driving...and it is all for free or
unconscious (just kidding; it is not free). However, seriously many people are very hypersensitive to noise and habituation helps but not entirely.
Now to your smoking.....habituation? or habit? Or is it an addiction with a tough habit to break. We do know that the 'feel good' area of your brain gives you a temporary...just that. But, it is a habit that is hard to break especially an addictive habit...you can call it habituation if you like. But it is an addictive habit. I smoked a pipe for years and years. I was almost never without it...I finally threw all my pipes and tobacco away and bought some nicorette gum. I went on a fishing vacation by myself and came back a week later....no more smoking....15 years...not too bad. Feel great.
Back to neurons and memory...neurons have two salient means to signal and communicate. One is by
action potential and the other is by
synaptic potential. I will talk about these soon. Rather interesting to say the least.
This helps shape our overall memory.
Be well my friend.
Rob
Segarama
Actually the resting potential determines the condition on which all other cellular signals are expressed. The action potential assuming it is a depolarized electrical signal only travels the length of the NEURON even though you see it travel as if it is continues through the synapse and on to the subsequent NEURON. Essentially action potential runs the entire length of
a neuron from the dentrites and cell body of that NEURON along the entire length of the axon, to its presynaptic terminal...essentially for the ease of understanding at this point; the depolarizing electrical signal of action potential then amazingly discharges, dumps, pours etc. a CHEMICAL into the synaptic cleft....it is sometimes referred to as the
chemical synaptic transmitter or [B]neurotransmitter.The chemical becomes the new signaling agent for the new post synaptic target cell.[/B]
You will notice that I started with resting potential; actually this determines the very beginning of the polarization of the action potential and chemical synaptic polarization. I found that this took sometime to actually imprint into my brain and can now move forward comfortably. Check out resting potential.
This is something to chew over.
Best,
Rob
MEMORY: FROM MIND To Molecules by Larry R. Squire and Eric R. Kandel is a outstanding book as I have mentioned before. Quoting directly from the book regarding the importance of memory and memory storage.
NEURAL SIGNALS
" Before turning to consider the action potential and the synaptic potential [which we already did]...we need to consider the
resting potential, the baseline condition upon which all other cellular signals are expressed".
"The external plasma membrane of the cell maintains at rest an electrical difference of about 65 millivolts;
this is the resting potential".
"It results from an unequal distribution of sodium, potassium, and other ions across the nerve cell membrane such that the inside of the cell membrane is negatively charged in relation to the outside. Because the outside of the membrane is arbitrarily defined as zero, we say the resting membrane potential is minus 65 millivolts (-65mV)."
So what you say well....think this over since action potential and synaptic potential is electrical......Isn't it?
Best,
Rob
IS THE BRAIN EVER RESTING
My interest in how the brain works came directly from observation, the realisation that children simply by using an abacus developed a mental mathematic map within it.
My next question was how do we learn anything. To skip to jump to swim to walk to run to speak to read to write to draw to think and effectively conscious thinking which mathematics is the best example of. Why is mathematics the best example of conscious thinking, purely because it is so simple and strictly with out any alternatives. It is essential in the majority of scientific proofs.
My observation is that the vast part of memory is subconscious; an example I use to illustrate this to myself is the ability to remember the sound of someone’s voice, over the telephone, and the instant recognition that occurs with a familiar voice.
We make no effort whatsoever to do this, it is subconscious it is automatic it is natural.
Obviously we are aware of conscious thinking, thinking subconsciously takes place at the speed of light, instinctively, it surfaces in moments of danger, and we draw down on it within unprepared speech to explain a concept or make an inquiry of another.
My technical education in these maters amounts to three days in an accelerated learning seminar with Toney Buzan and nearly 65 years with John Nicholson.
To quote De Bono once thought an idea may never be unthought but great thinking is the forerunner of proof. Individual justice is my target, collective thinking the only way forwards. Primary universal education the first step. Voluntary contribution to this concept essential, our whole life is based on the thinking and achievement of others.
I need to show how the action potential electrical current flows in the neuron and .... Actually the
resting state mentioned in the last communication is in a
state of equilibrium and means that there is no current going from one part of the neuron to the presynaptic terminal of the same neuron. The current is at rest. The action potential is at rest and there is not movement of any current through the neuron. This is important because the resting state does not change until there is an input signal from the neuron, and there is the perturbation of its membrane potential caused by the output of another nerve cell. Perturbation is an important term and I suggest that we study perturbation in anyway possible. The net works for this.
An excitatory potential is a depolarization or the lowering of the membrane potential. Remember the resting potential is circa -65mV as mentioned before. When a quick or sudden inrush of positive charged ions enter the negative charged resting membrane, a definite change takes place in the equalibrium of the -65mV. For example at rest the membrane is
circa (-65mV) with an equalibrium of positive potassimum and sodium ions on the outside of the membrane. When this onrush of positive ions encroach upon the resting membrane a
perturbation occurs and the membrane becomes depolarized ...the action potential is
excitory. This is the electrical current in the dentrite and axon of the neuron...The action potential is on the move as long as the requisite myelin is covering the requisite neuronal parts. I have a really neat image of viable myelin coverings that excites and moves the electrical current from one end of the neuron to the presynaptic terminal. The other image is also of the neuron axon that has cracked and diseased and disappearing myelin....it slows down the action potential (electrical current) and leaks and does not function. Please take a look at all of this url:
http://www.myelin.org/index.htm If we study this url closely we can see the action potential with and without the much needed myelin. Notice the olio cell myelating the axon. If it only could continue myelating the axon in perpetuity then we would not have the loss of cellular communications; we could move on. The image at the right in the url with the diseased myelin is MS. We will beat it.
Best,
Rob
If you will recall the action potential runs the length of a given neuron and as I said dumps chemicals into the presynaptic cleftchecks [presynaptic terminals]. The action potential opens up membranes for
calcium ions that cause a rapid increase in Ca2+ into the presynaptic terminal.[Squire & Kandel] It is this large and rapid increase in Ca2+ that leads to the release of the chemical transmitters. [Squire and Kandel] Actually the transmitter then encroaches on the
postsynaptic target [receptor]. The interaction between the neurotransmitter and the receptors in the postsynaptic cell causes a depolarizing excitatory synaptic potential in the postsynaptic cell [electrical]; if large enough may generate an action potential in the neuron.[Squire and Kandel]
Actually this begins the repeat of
action potential [electrical] moving quickly from the beginning of that neuron to the presynaptic terminal of that same neuron. In simplest terms.....and then the next cell or neuron.
dreaming,the first sign of sleep i look out for is a bizzare concept,the moment when logical thought,(related ideas) are taken over by the resting body and the freewheeling brain,if we simply divide our conscious thinking as against our subcuncious thinking,(presumable we are all aware of subconcious thinking) and therefore the concept that we shall never be fully aware of its content other then when wakeing from a dream, the magnitude of our subconcious is daunting.
From my own observations i belive the brain never rests, rapid eye movement within sleep no more then an exiting part of a conceptual dream.
MEMORY STORAGE maybe identifiable in concious thought but never in subconcious thought unless we clearly identify the specific.
so the question i most ask myself is what are these halls of subcocious thought, can i fill them with more information to assist my own knowlegde of the mind,we are being told that we use such a small portion of our brains,let us use reason to search for our subconcious and esential layers of knowledge.
I would like to give a brief summary of the transmission processes that are being discussed on this thread. I am happy to answer any further questions on this.
At the cellular level, learning and memory processes are embedded in networks of interconnecting cells capable of transmitting information termed neurons. Each neuron has three distinguishable parts: dendrites, a cell body, and an axon (Kaczmarek, 1997). Dendrites are highly branched processes that receive chemical signals from other cells. The dendrites then relay electrical signals to the cell body, which contains the nucleus with DNA and is the main site of protein synthesis. Electrical signals then travel along the axon, a long process covered by a fatty myelin sheath that extends out from the cell body. The axon branches into axon terminals, through which chemical signals are released to transmit the information to the dendrites of other cells. Such a chemical connection between two neurons is termed a synapse. The neuron that is sending out information is termed a presynaptic neuron and a neuron that is receiving information is termed a postsynaptic neuron. There is a small space between the axon of a presynaptic neuron and the dendrites of a postsynaptic neuron termed a synaptic cleft (Kaczmarek, 1997). The axon terminals of several presynaptic neurons converge on the dendrites of each postsynaptic neuron (Kaczmarek, 1997). Thus, the combined activity of many presynaptic neurons determines the net effect on each postsynaptic cell. The relative activity level at each synaptic connection regulates its strengthening or weakening and, ultimately, its existence (described in further detail in the next section). This phenomena is thought to be responsible for the structural encoding of learning and memory processes in the brain (Squire and Kandel, 1999).
The membranes of neurons are embedded with proteins that pump ions in and out of the cell and other protein gates called ion channels (Kaczmarek, 1997). These protein pumps cause an uneven distribution of Sodium (Na2+), Potassium (K+) and other ions across the cell membrane such that the inside of the cell membrane has a negative electrical charge relative to the outside (Kaczmarek, 1997). This resting membrane potential is about –65mV (Kaczmarek, 1997).
When new ion channels open, resultant shifts in the distribution of ions cause changes in the membrane potential (Kaczmarek, 1997). An increase in membrane potential, termed depolarization, potentiates the cell and is therefore excitatory. An decrease in membrane potential, termed hyperpolarization, is inhibitory. The balance between excitatory and inhibitory inputs converging on a postsynaptic cell determines the net effect on the postsynaptic cell (Kaczmarek, 1997). When the dendrites of a postsynaptic cell receive chemical signals from presynaptic cells, the resulting changes in the distribution of ions result in changes in membrane potential termed graded synaptic potentials (Kaczmarek, 1997). When the membrane potential becomes more positive, the synaptic potential is excitatory, and it is termed an EPSP (excitatory postsynaptic potential). When the membrane potential becomes more negative, the synaptic potential is inhibitory, and it is termed an IPSP (inhibitory postsynaptic potential). These synaptic potentials flow through the dendrites to the cell body. If the net synaptic potential at the cell body brings the membrane potential above a certain excitatory threshold, it triggers the opening of additional ion channels that results in movement of Na2+ into and subsequent movement of K+ out of the cell. This all-or-none shift in ions, called an action potential, then propagates to the end of the axon (Kaczmarek, 1997).
When an action potential reaches the end of an axon, it leads to the release of vesicles containing a chemical signal called a neurotransmitter (Kaczmarek, 1997). These neurotransmitters travel across the synaptic cleft and bind to receptors on the dendrites of the postsynaptic cell, which triggers the opening of new ion channels. The resultant shifts in the distribution of ions across the postsynaptic membrane begins the cascade of intracellular process outlined above. This elegant system of electrical and chemical signaling among neurons in the brain underlies the processing of information that enables learning and memory process to occur.
Hope this is helpful,
Christina
Christina, Thank you for the neat summary. I really really appreciate it.
You refer to a text by Kaczmarek. I am looking at a text online titled The neuron: Cell and molecular biology by Levitan and L. Kaczmarek, 3rd edition, 2002 Oxford University Press. Do you recommend this book or another for me.
Best
Rob
Thank you both for working through the thinking process, my specific intrest is
with the possabilites of ensuring every child of four years of age,is taught taking advantage of what we already know.
Basic skills acquisition in mental arithmatic and reading, establishing clear memory is everything to a four year old.
Apart from the internet my reading of How Brains Makes up Their Minds by Walter J Freeman and The Undiscovered Mind John Horgan, i am having to use my own perseptions as to how the human mind works.
This forum in its infancy is a godsend for me,(If I do belive in him) humanist that i am.
Hi Rob, yes, this Kaczmarek book is very good. It is an introductory book to the cell and molecular biology of nerve cells. The writing style is more technical than Squire and Kandels' and it is not limited to learning and memory. This book will certainly enrich your understanding of the processes discussed in Squire and Kandel, as well as provide a solid base on which to build other neurobiological knowledge tangentially-related to learning and memory. It can be ordered from the following site:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/cgi-bin/apf4...0195145232
Have you finished the Squire and Kandel one already? You are a voracious reader!
For others, Squire and Kanels'
Memory: From Mind to Molecule is an excellent introduction to brain and learning. It can be ordered from the following site:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/det...ce&s=books
Happy learning,
Christina
This figure displays a simplified version of a synaptic connection between two neurons. In reality, the axon terminals of several presynaptic neurons converge on the dendrites of each postsynaptic neuron.
Hi Christina
The debate of whether or not something is
'causal' may rely on the cellular basis for action and the action itself. Actually we do have a cellular basis for nondeclarative and declarative memory. Since most all evidence of nondeclarative action is unconscious, does this mean it does not have a cellular basis. Most of the unconscious nondeclarative memory is manifest by actions such as riding a bicyle, playing the piano, driving a car, walking, brushing teeth, decoding words and tying your shoe. We know that two of the memory systems are located in different neural areas. It is not quite this simple, but I see a
causal connections from memory to instruction; which is a very important part of learning and I see it used for instruction without surfeit of impunity.
Comments, please.
Best.
Rob
Most of the unconscious nondeclarative memory is manifest by actions such as riding a bicycle, playing the piano, driving a car, walking, brushing teeth, decoding words and tying your shoe.
Conscious or unconscious there has to be a link, the computer (brain) is connected at conception and finally shut down at the last intake of oxygen,
is it not.
Jn for oxygen
Hi John, the more I get deeper into this, I believe that nondeclarative memories expectially those that are motor such as riding a bike etc. are causal. If we were to run the stats on it being a positive correlation then it would be an extremely high correlation. Maybe just maybe, we may have to accept the highest of correlations. Otherwise no one has yet told me who is the umpire on what is
causation. There is a great deal written on causal theory etc., however I am not sure that we can move ahead with this one salient contraint. I am looking at high correlations as my next best possibility. Someone needs to correct me if I am going off course and we can talk about it. But we are getting really close to some vaccines for cancer and thought we had a possibile ameliorating drug for Parkinson's before it caused problems for some.
Many of us react differently to medications and maybe just maybe, the causal factors might be a pejorative expressed within us. (Our molecular biological reaction contained within our own body might be the real problem in some extreme cases where the drug ameliorates for some and thimerosal reacted deleteriously for many others.). But no causal effect was proven.
Is there a titer test of some kind that could play an important role in this scenario.
Just a thought.....
Best
Rob
In putting experiential learning together to create an unconscious nondeclarative memory can be hard work. Let' take for example Olympic swimmer Claudia Kolb. She swam for us at the Santa Clara Swim Club in Santa Clara, California many years ago.
Her best event was the breastroke (top notch) and she was very weak in the backstroke; better than average in the freestyle and the same with the butterfly.
The Head Coach George Haines asked me while the swimmers were warming up to pick the next Olympic Champion for the 400 IM from those who we swimming laps. He wanted me to write down a name and put it on the table and he would do the same. We were to compare names at 6:00 p.m. We already had Donna DeVarona who was the best in the world in the 400 IM, but she was going to retire after the next Olympics.
At six p.m. George and I compared notes. We had both written the same name on our sheets of paper......
Claudia Kolb.
We discuss all the reasons why out of 50 swimmers that we picked Claudia and set forth to build a strategy for her practice sessions. She must also enter the
local swimming events in the butterfly, backstroke, breastroke and freestyle.
Talk about hard work on the part of Claudia who at first placed last in the backstroke and butterfly in most meets. This type of experiential learning is indeed at a very high level...To make a long story less long, she began placing and winning medals in local and regional meets in her less than best strokes. We at least wanted her to qualify in the single event of backstroke since that was her weakest. She finally did and consistently also. Experiential learning is not a vicarious type of learning. To really learn one must get in the game.
Clauda Kolb won the 400 IM in the Olympics but the hours of work that she put into this unconscious nondeclarative memory did not come easily....so we must remember that we do have to put forth effort when creating an unconscious nondeclarative memory. [Not usually this much work, but you get the idea].
This of course was notwithstanding the other important aspects to build a champion.
Best,
Rob
This is a temporal succession diagram of the events occurring at a synapse when a chemical signal is passed across the synaptic cleft (image adapted from, Squire and Kandel, 1999, pp. 33). A presynaptic action potential elicits the release of neurotransmitter into the synaptic cleft. The binding of the neurotransmitter to postsynaptic receptors then results in a postsynaptic potential.